Calories In vs. Calories Out – The Debate is Over

Calories In vs. Calories Out – The Debate is Over

Calories In vs. Calories Out – The Debate is Over

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so calories in versus calories out a question that comes up constantly does it truly matter and is it a real thing all over the internet right now we see people that are talking about just if it fits your macros or eating whatever you possibly want as long as it fits within a specific caloric range and then we have another subset of people that talk about the ketogenic diet and say that when you’re on a keto diet calories don’t matter at all or when you’re fat adapted calories don’t matter at all so we want to do is we want to break this down and in order to break this down I’ve brought in someone that I highly highly respect in the YouTube space this is mr. Mike Lutz all and Mike I promoted you coming here thanks so much for having me – no totally tell everyone kind of you know a little bit about you and why should he why they should be listening to what we’re talking about – sure yeah it’s a great question so I have a master’s degree in human nutrition undergraduate degree in biology and I’ve been studying this stuff for long time like you we have similar backgrounds so I used to work with medical doctors integrative doctors and so you know I’ve worked with a lot of health care practitioners study the research and you know I – and the skeptic initially right of all these different things I was even a skeptic at first of kedo and so I like to go into the research and see what what’s going on what scientists are saying what they’re publishing so yeah I mean one that one of my passions like you it is looking at metabolic science and figuring out ways that we can optimize our body’s physiology so that’s what I focus on on my channel awesome very cool and for those of you that that know my background something you may or may not but what he said we have similar backgrounds we both came from sort of this medical background that says that we’re not doctors but we work closely with physicians like I managed over 1200 physicians in the world of like the ancillary lab services providing lab services to them you know you worked in the industry and work very closely with Pharma and everything so we know we just know the good the bad and the ugly of the industry and it’s like you don’t have to be a doctor to know the industry in fact I could also argue that a lot of times the doctors don’t know the industry as much as the people that are working a little bit more on the admin side – that’s which is scary to think about right really scary yeah probably why you got into what you’re doing and why I got into what I’m doing exactly no that’s how I started yeah I was I was doing webinars for doctors teaching them about nutrition you know it’s funny and so that’s how I started this this whole YouTube channel and everything so yeah it’s interesting no that’s awesome and I want to say you know it goes without saying I of course watch this video but you guys have to go check out Mike’s channel because he is completely under value on YouTube I think you deserve way more subs and you have because you have you’re growing fast but your channel is phenomenal but anyway without further ado let’s get to the subject is it ok so calories in calories out you and I kind of come from the same cut of cloth when it comes down to this but you know the common thing that that I’ve been getting hit with lately is having these guys come out and say that especially with the Adam keto diet that calories are the end-all be-all like it’s all gonna come down to calories it is a calorie really a calorie those calories in gonna be calories out so I first want to hear kind of your initial stance on this I mean your kind of discussion going on sure no that’s great I mean it’s really interesting to think about because you know if we think about like when we go to the gym and say we burn 3,500 calories right let’s say you and I were in beautiful you know Southern California we go for a bike ride I used to race bicycles and you know several times when I was training on the weekend for six hours I would burn north of 6000 calories so theoretically I should have lost over about two pounds just under two pounds of fat per day doing that but sometimes I would actually gain weight right so I think it’s oversimplified the human metabolism is so integrated with nutrient sensing receptors hormones and so yet we really need to think about all the different networks and so forth on the on the cellular and biological level and so I think it’s just been oversimplified you know this this I mean if we think about what a calorie is it’s unit of energy to break down it’s unit of heat sorry to break down a finite amount of energy the body doesn’t necessarily work like that like that’s a concept in physics and so I think it’s it’s just calories certainly matter like I don’t think you can over consume a lot of calories right more than your your physical activity wouldn’t garner in necessarily lose weight but I think with the hormonal shifts and the nutrient sensing receptors that are upregulated with fasting with keto with exercise we have a lot of wiggle room there and so you and I both know when we see comments of clients that have been following a low-calorie diet for a long period of time in their body composition it stagnates right so the body is constantly adapting so I think it’s important for people you know just big canvas overview calories do matter but hormones nutrients that some receptors all these other factors in your lifestyle really govern your how your body utilizes and partitions energy precisely and it’s like we hear about the the basal metabolic rate right or just our basic amount of calories you burn in a day and I love bringing this up with people because the thing is is the basal metabolic rate like it’s fluctuating by the second that’s I think it’s like we can’t we can’t really even average that out to a day you know because it’s gonna change so much so all these different hormonal fluctuations everything that plays a role in our calories in calories out directly affects what our basal metabolic rate is at that very point in time and one of the things that I often talk about is looking at your caloric needs at a different scale rather than a day use a day is just that’s just a moment in time it’s a day like look at over the course of a week because it might give you a little bit more of a macro picture of the different fluctuations you’re going to have based on hormones and and whatnot and you talk about you know different reception we have the different things and one of the things that I recently discovered is how the inflammation pathway works with a fat cell specifically and a fat cell produces its own kind of anti-inflammatory components in inflammatory components and when one is obese or a fat cell is engorged it’s producing more of the inflammatory component it has sort of a for lack of a better term almost a positive feedback system so it sees that it actually grows more which therefore it would mean that your calorie is not that calorie is not equal anymore because now that calorie is being directed more towards a fat cell and triggering more inflammation within that fat cell does that make sense totally yeah I mean this it’s it’s interesting so inflammation changes nutrient partitioning and how nutrients are distributed throughout the body so if you and I were to treat someone that had to see a third-degree burn the resting metabolic rate would say they’re burning 1,600 calories per day they have a burn the resting metabolic rate is going to increase and they’re gonna need more say sugar and so forth their fat cells are going to hold on to energy and all that so that it’s really interesting that you bring that up because there’s so many different aspects of our physiology inflammation how long you’ve been overweight how enlarged your fat cells are autoimmunity all these things totally pivot your metabolic rate and so a great point and then to that kind of second to that a lot of people think that they’re overweight they have a sluggish metabolic rate they think well I just have a slow metabolism but if you look at the overweight people they actually their resting metabolic rate is generally higher than someone that’s that’s let of less weight so if you want to raise your met resting metabolic rate if you think that’s the end-all be-all you can gain weight so that will cause your body to it likewise if you want to slow things down you know if you just chronically restrict your calories and so that slows things down but ya know exactly and this kind of comes back to when we talk about like the ketogenic diet it’s got some amazing abilities to help you preserve your mass your muscle mass which is your biggest driver for your metabolic rate so you know when we do give a little bit of credit to those that’s preached the calories and calories out I mean that’s where we can actually throw it onto them right it’s like okay great well if we do look at that theory then the ketogenic diet actually lends itself quite well to that and I’m not saying that just because I’m a proponent of the keto diet it just it all comes down to like it just brings your point like usually someone that is carrying a large amount of weight whether it’s fat or muscle if they’re carrying a large amount of fat there’s usually a good amount of muscle to carry that weight yeah and the muscles are under a pretty significant load to carry that weight so there’s a higher degree of metabolic activity just occurring there so when you look at something like the keto diet it actually preserves lean body mass so there’s a couple of studies but I know one I can’t reference exactly where it is but the study basically found that when we’re not a massive calorie restriction they basically maintained most of their resting metabolic rate even after losing 40 pounds I need a pretty quick amount of time so it’s going to show that we can lose our weight and still keep our metabolism nice and high even in somewhat of a calorie deficit if we have the right nutrients in place and the reason I mentioned that is simply because that calorie coming from fat in a ketogenic state is clearly not the same as a calorie coming in that’s not fat in an oncogenic State totally well and I think the metabolic signature is different right so if you just if you compare two people ones in ketosis one is not and they’re you know under eating calories for example you put them in a deficit so to speak which we can define shortly and talk about if that really does happen but there is a different nutrient that the whole metabolomic proteome you’ve probably talked about this on the channel but you know different genes are being turned on and turned off based upon what nutrients are in the system and what’s so unique about ketones is they affect not only our genetic expression but the epigenome so the above the genome control you know in this higher order control of different metabolic pathways and nutrient pathways and so yeah it’s really interesting some of the studies that have underfed individuals so kind of restricted their calories and given them a ketogenic diet they preserve more lean mass and they don’t have the weight loss induced it’s a big word weight loss to do suppression of their resting metabolic rate exactly so if so if you and I both go in a day we lose 20 pounds our you know thyroid hormone our adrenaline the hormones that comprise our metabolism our metabolism is going too slow to get absolutely but if we do that on a ketogenic diet that metabolic slowdown that’s linked with weight loss is gonna be attenuated a little bit so that’s what’s cool so you don’t see that you know that and that’s why I think personally and this is just Mike talking without any you know major human clinical studies to show this I think that’s why the Keogh Jenna Todd is so successful because people are not having that like chronic depression in their metabolic rate and so they’re losing weight and their maintain the weight loss which is what we’re trying to get people to do exactly exactly and I would actually agree with you entirely and it adds to the point of you know talking about insulin a little bit and I think that there’s it’s more so the reasons that we just discussed that the ketogenic diet is great for weight loss and has been sis obsess so successful scuse me and it’s less to do with the chronically low levels of insulin I do believe that insulin plays a big role for sure but there’s a lot of there’s a lot of other hormones yeah there’s a lot of other hormones but there’s just a lot of evidence going both ways with insulin so you know some people will say that insulin by far is absolutely plays no part in weight loss and we talked about some studies there the fact is that you know suppress levels of insulin do have some other hormonal responses that cause us to burn more fat but I think the biggest driver with like a low carb ketogenic diet is not the elimination or the decrease in insulin it’s more so the presence of the ketones and what they actually do to gene expression and what they actually do to our body and our ability to metabolize it’s such a great point yeah and you know and so the calorie counting crowd kind of makes fun of ketogenic people and saying you know they use words like the insulin Fairy and say all you ketogenic people you focus on insulin but a prerequisite to get into ketosis is I know you’ve talked about on the channel low glucose low insulin but high glucagon so we do kind of forget about that so there’s all these other hormones and insulin is a big one but some of the controlled metabolic ward studies have found by Kevin Hall and other folks I mean they’re in the proponent or their proponents of the continuous energy restriction model of obesity like obesity is really a function of how much energy you’re burning versus how much you’re ingesting right that’s their premise and what we’re kind of talking about is this other model where there’s hormones involved nutrient sensing receptors maybe jeans you know networks in so forth and they actually in some of those models they show that insulin doesn’t really matter but in the tissue culture studies what we see is if if I were to give you insulin right now and look at your fat cells under a microscope your fat cells are gonna hold on to more fat they’re not gonna release it that’s called a dip site lipolysis and ween we need that lipolysis to eventually burn the fat for fuel and so that’s where I think a lot of people they see one study say see it’s all insulin because you know if you give insulin to an animal they don’t release as much now but there’s all these other hormones there’s leptin and ghrelin and adiponectin glucagon I mean there’s a lot of these different things and what we see with a low carb diet particularly if people have insulin issues is it tends to normalize this whole network of hormones and so that’s what’s exciting it and I think it dovetails to what you were saying is instead of look at insulin or look at your calories in one day look at this over the long haul right and so like I do that – like a calorie cycle you know like some days I fast Monday I fast today I’m fasting but tomorrow I’ll have dinner with my family I have a surplus right so I think getting people to think bigger about this can help them yeah it’s like I mean this is a point that those who’ve watched my channel are probably to say Thomas does sound like a broken record cuz you talk about this all the time then you bring up such like a solid point in that if I am like right now we’re not consuming anything does that technically mean we’re in a deficit yes okay well if you were to consume like 1 mm right now or I were to consume one mmm would that mean that we’re technically not a deficit any more it’s like how do you get at that very point in time at this very moment in time I’m in a deficit but the second that I eat that that M&M I’m not a deficit anymore technically I’m in a surplus for even a nanosecond right so if calories in calories out is the end-all be-all then we definitely have to look at it at different scales because I could go home today and say well I wasn’t a calorie surplus today for like a nanosec but did I gain fat in that nanosecond no I’m pretty sure I didn’t so are we constantly in a tit-for-tat like the second I eat something I am gaining fat in a second I’m not I’m burning it that’s not what’s happening you know so it’s just the body the flexibility and when we go on any kind of lower carb or even just low calorie diets and this kind of poses another question it’s like is the slow down under catabolism a bad thing I first off want to put it out there that like when we look at like our ancestors like a slower metabolism isn’t always a bad thing I mean I see that as that’s a metabolic flexibility that’s actually you know if you have two people that are in a situation where one requires a lot of calories and one does not in a survival situation the person has a slower metabolism might actually end up faring better so that’s not always the end of the world but the fact is is that it’s it just doesn’t come down to that almighty calorie at every single second that’s just the unit of heat that’s all it right excellent point if you kind of follow up things on that so if we didn’t have a suppression or a mild transient decrease in our resting metabolic rate associated with fasting or when food was gone we would actually strip away muscle mass so it’s it’s it’s hypothesized George Cahill you probably reviewed some of his research on the channel Oliver Owen who was part of that group and then he went on to do some other fasting studies so they find that the I red hormone because this comes up a lot like if I do Kido where I fast I’m just yeah and I think you did a video on it like these ketones are gonna gobble up your thyroid I think it’s what you use the word right and so this has been a passion project of mine because I get so much kickback on Instagram like I tried keto but it wrecked my thyroid so here’s the thing so if we fast for three days our free t3 free t4 and reverse t3 our t3 levels are going to go down so our offense effectively our thyroid function is going to decrease in a reverse t3 will increase but like you’re saying is that always a bad thing and if part of the mechanisms associate with that is to preserve lean muscle mass because what t3 does in the body is it can actually basically break down muscle protein called proteolysis muscle proteolysis splitting out so if we didn’t have that kind of suppression in our thyroid hormone we might lose lean muscle mass and you and I both know and people probably listening know most of our resting metabolic rate is governed by muscle so you’re like if you didn’t have the the body smart it’s been doing this for many many years and generations guys so first first thing they’re like don’t be totally suppressed don’t be totally surprised by small changes in hormones they’re transient we’re not saying fast every day we’re saying like one day a week or weeks or do a five-day fast once a quarter you know everyone has their different approach and so again looking at the big picture I think that’s important no you nailed it and I just want to add to the thyroid thing just in case people didn’t see that video or housing into your content but like glucose metabolism in general requires thyroid so when glucose is lower because they’re like keto diet or you have less of that there’s less thyroid that’s actually being allocated for that so therefore your thyroid hormone is going to decrease but it doesn’t mean your metabolism necessarily even slowed down it just means there’s less that’s actually being required at that point in time so it’s same kind of things like when do you look at it you know when does it really matter and which is a great lead-in to something we talked about before we started filming this which was the gluconeogenesis pathway and this is and I have to fall on the sword because there is a you know a couple of years ago like I was with a lot of the other people that I thought that gluconeogenesis could damage the ketogenic diet like creating excess blood sugar that could cause a rise in insulin that kicks you out of keto of it there is some truth to that to some degree but we won’t go down that rabbit hole but gluconeogenesis is basically the process where your body’s taking other energy substrates muscle for example and breaking it down into glucose well what’s interesting is that to create energy from protein you end up at an actual net loss of energy so for example like glycolysis when you’re using glucose to make energy one gram of glucose ends up yielding to ATP okay so it gives you you know a little bit of energy right but then when you look at the gluconeogenesis pathway it takes six units of ATP to actually process and create that one unit of glucose so you’re at a net loss of four ATP so you’re actually in an effort for your bodies struggling to create some energy it’s like basically jumping over dollars to save nickels but it does it and it’s so it’s inefficient but inefficient to a degree that if you have ketones present at the same time you could have the muscle sparing effects of the ketones while actually creating sort of a manufactured deficit through that gluconeogenesis pathway does that make sense totally I think that’s such a group I didn’t know that that four molecules of ATP to make the glucose yeah so it’s so it’s an expensive way to make energy but because we’re in a state of ketosis or fasting while we need the you know gluconeogenesis happens when we’re not getting exogenous or foreign glucose coming in so it’s obviously a positive thing and what a lot of people don’t understand about gluconeogenesis and you alluded to it is ketosis and gluconeogenesis are parallel pathways because it would be amazing if every cell in the body could utilize ketones but i know you’ve covered this on the channel not every tissue or cell type in our body the red blood cells or retina different neurons in the brain need their all but what I call obligate mean they have to utilize glucose so we need to come from somewhere and in the first 24 hours of fasting it comes from stored glycogen in our muscle tissue in in our liver after that it’s coming from one of kind of three sources lactate recycling right so lactic acid from utilizing glucose or glycerol which is the backbone of your stored triglycerides or fat so the free fatty acids from that try a so glyceride or triglyceride those go on to make ketones and can be utilized to make energy through beta oxidation or that glycerol backbone of course as you know can be utilized to make glucose which is really cool so it’s like stored body fat can go both ways again and that’s why again people shouldn’t be scared of gluconeogenesis if they’re in ketosis I think that would be bad if you’re yeah but you wouldn’t my gluconeogenesis happening on a high carbohydrate high sugar that’s right because then you would just be add fuel to the fire so that I think that’s really interesting to to kind of talk about that so but what’s interesting about ketones too is they also work on the adipocyte level so been Bickman has talked about this and they actually make fat cells more inefficient in creating energy and they liberate more heat and so this is called mitochondrial uncoupling we hear about this in brown adipose tissue or brown fat so I know you talked about coal thermogenesis ice bath things like that even exercise stimulates this brown fat and what’s unique about brown fat is instead of making the ATP that you just alluded to it makes heat essentially and they kind of uncouple zamana Kandra and been Bickman over at BYU what he’s shown is that in fat tissue ketones make the adipocytes more inefficient so they’re creating more heat which is really unique so again it goes back to this calorie and calorie out model where the body has all these different you know mechanisms to dissipate energy that are not always creating energy to do work like they’re doing other things like you’re referring to metabolically so this increase in and this is you might know the answer this and just on this kind of question so in an effort like with this rising uncoupling protein and everything that allows us to occur and your hypothesis would this be probably is that probably why we feel cold in the facts is pulling from the extremities and going there to release heat to protect our vital organs I mean that kind of justice I’m just kicking the dot to lose a little bit of a digression but I’m just kind of thinking yeah I’ve heard that a lot so I was actually talking with Peter ot about this and I think it depends on how much lean body mass you have in your body fat percentage so what I found is especially in women who are like really low body fat for women like 15% after they fast they get cold for me I’m sure you’re sitting pretty lean what 12% 11% is even lower yeah somewhere in there somewhere like this so not a lot of body fat right so I think for someone like yourself the the preservation of lean mass is gonna prioritize and so your thyroid hormone is going to decrease quickly to preserve that mass you’re going to get gluconeogenesis coming from a suicide set so that’s my hypothesis and because I don’t see people with a high body fat percentage complain of being cold when they faster do ketta it’s mostly people that are of low body fat but I would love to see I’ll follow the comments and see what people are saying yeah make sure you guys comment below and let us know because I mean I’ve definitely seen some comments but I don’t know and just use your own judgement of me if you if you feel like you’re lean you know and you get cold and that would be worth noting because I mean I definitely get cold I mean – yeah and it’s I know we’re kind of bridging the gap a little bit here but like I don’t want people to get concerned that they’re getting cold because their metabolism slowing down that’s not really what’s going on it’s stuff some people think oh my metabolism must be screeching to a halt if anything if you’re feeling that I mean you have this increase in uncoupling protein that’s allowing this heat dissipation to occur so you’re actually in essence creating more heat but you’re just feeling cold more than likely in your extremities you probably not feeling cold at your core by your hands your feet your arms your legs getting a little bit cold absolutely it’s a great point just to emphasize the difference between intermittent energy restriction what we call intermittent fasting so this is what scientists kind of they use more complex jargon you know in research papers right comparing that to continuous energy restriction so studies have looked at the outcome verses like periodic you know calorie surplus and then calorie deficit first continuous energy deficits that does suppress your minute a metabolic rate for a long period of time and there’s differences in lean body mass how much lean body mass is preserved and I think there’s seven pretty well conducted human clinical trials now that have compared intermittent fasting versus chronic energy restriction and six out of the seven have shown that when you do intermittent fasting or periodic energy restriction you actually burn more body fat you lower your triglycerides more you increase HDL lower LDL so these are all metabolic parameters that are linked with insulin resistance the metabolic syndrome and you preserve lean more muscle yeah I said that you preserve more lean muscle mass and what’s unique is these studies is when they look at the subjects after like let’s say you put individuals I think one group in Colorado what they did is they had a 12-week to arms of the study low-calorie versus intermittent fasting they followed up 20 weeks later to see okay well what happens long-term the individual is actually on the in terment fasting style diet and more had less fat regain had preserved more lean muscle mass and you know in terms of their metabolic parameters they were still better than the group that was in the continuous energy deficit so that shows to me that okay we can argue all the along calories in calories out but long-term in real humans not short-term ten-day studies in a metabolic war yeah exactly you know there is a physiologic difference and so I think that’s the thing to kind of think about because a lot of the people that are you know proponents of the energy and vs. energy out is sign akwonton of weight loss they’re not looking at the long term human clinical studies and David Ludwig’s group has done this too and so they actually you know had people lose weight up to a I think they lost 5% of their body weight so uh and then they randomized people to low-carb medium carbon high carb diets and they found there was definitely a difference in leptin and ghrelin in body we’re reading all these parameters so it’s like we’re seeing that the nutrients that you eat and how you go about your fasting protocols changes your body composition in different ways ya know without a doubt it’s definitely I mean it’s interesting to see just as a whole all these different pieces that come together and I think that’s kind of the general consensus of what we’re saying today is that calories do matter but they’re gonna matter at different periods and they’re gonna matter at different levels and there’s a lot more to it than just a simple calories and calories out and I want to kind of wrap this up on this simple note sure we have to look at the longevity piece too and you talked about gene expression talked about thyroid there’s no studies that show that a lower level of thyroid is actually better for longevity so I want everyone to look at the big picture we all want to look good we all want to feel good we all want to be lean and mean but the reality is we also want to live for a long time and that’s when we have to look at calories in calories out and save this topic for another day but the quality of those calories despite what anybody says do matter and it matters when it comes down to your gene expression when it comes down to living for a long time and just living an ultimately healthy life it’s such a great point yeah and so I think you know we can achieve this calorie reduction that’s associated with longevity and vitality through intermittent fasting as opposed to chronically restricted them and so and that’s why I advise people to do Plus that makes life more enjoyable right so if you know that you’re gonna have you know friends overdue brunch you know had your family and all that you don’t want to be like worrying about calories you can have a surplus on that day and then maybe fast the next day for example you know and so create a healthy relationship for food because I do see people make this mistake where they’re like I overate so I’m just gonna fast and that’s like disordered eating behaviors right so like have a little structure and I encourage people just do one 24-hour fast every week if you look long-term if you do that every week for one year you’re about 17 percent in a quote-unquote calorie restricted state for your entire you know year and that gets you to about that 20 percent number that researchers look at that’s associated with reduced cancer reduced autoimmunity preservation of brain health and all that and animals so exciting stuff for sure it’s really exciting stuff and you know if you guys want to see more on this and you want to see more collaboration with Mike please put it down in the comment section because again I guess not very often then we get someone on the channel that we can actually riff on this stuff because it’s it’s people are usually very biased in their approaches and one thing is I preached about you is that you’re you’re pretty open pretty honest and you use tools and your tool kit and I try to do the same so Mike thank you so much my pleasure coming on the channel my pleasure as make sure you give him a follow honestly he’s gonna drop some knowledge bombs that even make my man just go so thanks guys thank you I’m Mian sees it

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Calories In vs. Calories Out - The Debate is Over

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Putting an End to the Calorie Debate – Do Calories in Calories Out Matter?

So, calories in versus calories out. A question that comes up constantly: Does it truly matter and is it a real thing? All over the internet right now, we see people that are talking about, just, if it fits macros, or eating whatever you possibly want as long as it fits within a specific caloric range. Then we have another subset of people that talk about the ketogenic diet and say that when you’re on a keto diet, calories don’t matter at all, or when your fat-adapted calories don’t matter at all.

Thomas DeLauer: What we want to do is we want to break this down. In order to break this down, I brought in someone that I highly, highly respect in the YouTube space. This is Mr. Mike Mutzel, and Mike, I appreciate you coming here.

Mike Mutzel: Buddy, thanks so much for having me. It’s an honor.

Thomas DeLauer: Totally. Tell everyone kind of, you know, a little bit about you and why they should be listening to what we’re talking about today.

Mike Mutzel: Sure, yeah. It’s a great question. I have master’s degree in human nutrition, undergraduate degree in biology. I’ve been studying this stuff for a long time, like you. We have similar backgrounds. I used to work with medical doctors, integrative doctors, and so I’ve worked with a lot healthcare practitioners, studied the research. I too am a skeptic, initially, right, of all these different thing. I was even a skeptic at first of keto. I like to go into the research and see what’s going on, what scientists are saying, what they’re publishing. Yeah, I mean, one of my passions, like you, is looking at metabolic science and figuring out ways that we can optimize our body’s physiology, so that’s what I focus on on my channel.

Thomas DeLauer: Awesome. Very cool. For those of you that know my background … Some of you may or may not, but when he said we have similar backgrounds, we both came from sort of this medical background in the sense that we’re not doctors, but we worked closely with physicians. I managed over 1,200 physicians in the world of ancillary lab services, providing lab services to them. You worked in the industry and worked for closely with pharma and everything. We just know the good, the bad, and the ugly of the industry.

Okay, so calories in, calories out. You and I kind of come from the say cut of cloth when it comes down to this, but the common thing that I’ve been getting hit with lately is you’re having these guys come and say that, especially with the advent of the keto diet, that calories are the end all, be all. Like, it’s all going to come down to calories. Is a calorie really a calorie? Is calories in going to be calories out? I first want hear your initial stance on this, and then we can get kind of a discussion going.

Mike Mutzel: Sure. No, that’s great. I mean, it’s really interesting to think about because if we think about when we go to the gym and say we burned 3,500 calories, right? Let’s say you and I were in beautiful Southern California, we go for a bike ride. I used to race bicycles, and several times when I was training on the weekend for six hours, I would burn north of 6,000 calories. Theoretically, I should have lost about two pounds, just under two pounds of fat per day doing that, but sometimes I would actually gain weight, right? I think it’s oversimplified.

Mike Mutzel: The human metabolism is so integrated with nutrient-sensing receptors, hormones, and so we really need to think of all the different networks and so forth on the cellular and biological level. I think it’s just been oversimplified. I mean, if we think about what a calorie is, it’s a unit of energy to break down … It’s a unit of heat, sorry, to break down an amount, a finite amount of energy. The body doesn’t necessarily work like that. That’s a concept in physics, and so I think it’s just calories certainly matter. I don’t think you can over-consume a lot of calories, more than your physical activity would garner, and necessarily lose weight; but I think with the hormonal shifts and the nutrient-sensing receptors that are up-regulated with fasting, with keto, with exercise, we have a lot of wiggle room there.

Thomas DeLauer: Guys, make sure you give him a follow. Honestly, he’s going to drop some knowledge bombs that even make my mind just go, so-

Mike Mutzel: Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on.

Thomas DeLauer: All right. See you soon.

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